An Interesting Discussion turned to argument about Islamic Influence on the West


A Very Interesting Discussion I had on Facebook over an article. I thought its worth sharing.

The link below is the article that started the discussion.

http://www.viewpointonline.net/omars-law-in-unknown-in-sweden-swedish-historian-tells-imran-khan.html

And here’s the discussion so far…
SMZ: bc IK is in the habit of spouting rubbish from his mouth 🙂
SB: well — I absolutely agree with Imran Khan…
for one thing – the group of jews who initially started to form israel actually accepted this fact over 50 years ago…
secondly — we can ourselves study & note the similarities —
so jus because a guy, who most of us don’t seem to like, gave in a statement – atleast we who call ourselves learned should not react with prejudice…
SB: BTW – how many of us do know that at the time of our Prophet (SAWW) the people who reverted to Islam consisted of a Hindu…
though Prophet (SAWW) never visited hindustan..
SA: Omar’s law is an old Jamat-e-islami baseless propaganda which i have already heard from many Mullahs even in the educational institutions. and now since IK and jamat-e-islami are no more different hence he has also started speaking the language of JI.
KBA: Thats interesting. Can you quote a source for this?
SB: Sorry Bud, da exact link is not possible because I’ve came across this info from the different books/discussions/talkshows I’v been thru over the years…
But why don’t u guys dig out the history abt what Hazrat Umer’s Law is about — & then also for my second reference tht Hindu was ‘ Baba Ratan Chand’…
Me: Its a historical fact that history is written with a point of view. mostly from the point of view of the victor. there will always be an argument on this subject because there is no possible way to verify which point of view is right n which one is wrong. those who favor Islam will always favor the existence of Omer’s Law n those who don’t follow Islam will be skeptics. so.. is IK right? depends which point of view you’re considering. A good approach to the subject will be to analyze both or all point of views rather than forming a bias opinion just because somehow someone decided that not favoring a religious impact on the subject is somehow a sin n you’ll go to hell if you don’t agree.
AZK: Omar’s law or anyothers, My question to you (forget IK for a minute) have the Europeans ever agreed to taking anything from Muslims? It is Muslim history that narrates Universities in Spain where precious works were kept and students from all over Europe used to get admissions there. Pottery, Art, Calligraphy, Sciences all were taught in those days. Similar was the case of Baghdad. Now how many European historians have quoted that? NONE…..How many European scientists have quoted their early inventions based on Muslim scientists research? NONE! Only we know the names of Alhazen, Jabir Bin Hayaan, etc. They dont want to remember, in fact they want any and every evidence that leads to Muslim innovators to be deleted from history. everywhere….
Me: hahaha.. and the above post is the perfect example of what I was saying about being blinded by religious justification. Again I say this.. analyzing all point of views rather than one can help. and an emotional outcry without factual data’s backing.. well that’s just emotional out cry n not really the best way to start or win an argument. 

Islam in Spain – Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

en.wikipedia.org

there you go.. this is one Wikipedia. and that’s just the very first link that I got from google and there are many many more. To assume that the entire west or Europe is dedicated to wiping out Islamic Influence is far fetched at worst. I’m pretty sure they got more concerning matters to attend to… current mess they call the European economy for example. 
here’s another example of where ms. khan would need to review her thought process.
Neil Degrasse Tyson. one of the most famous scientist of our current time (non-muslim). you might know him from the reference of Pluto.. he’s the guy who helped classify Pluto as a non planet or a dwarf planet. He explains how the political and religious influence of one man Hamid al-ghazali pretty much kicked the muslim scientists and mathematicians(people who invented Algebra) to the curb. (historical fact from arabic historians, not European historians) and that time frame or religious movement had nothing to do with so called European or Western Agenda to wipe out muslims. This happened around 1858-1111 AD. 
My point is… we’re going back and forth over written history from different point of views. how do you justify which one is right n which one is wrong cuz you and i weren’t really there. only reason we know of this is because we have read about it or heard about it. so… back to my original point.. the Point of View. you can look at it with the ‘religious microscope’ or you can study and analyze the whole thing with different facts. choice is your own. I’ll go with the facts and one of them being is that European or Western civilization isn’t ‘deleting the muslim history’.
AZK: Wikipedia? That is kids thing…use some reliable source for Heaven’s sake!
Me: again Ms. Khan keeps proving my point. thanks.
AZK: Grow up Mrs Iffi…thanks
Me: again.. emotional out cry isn’t something that’ll get you any where. and now we’re slipping down to insults? hahaha. please continue.. you keep making my point over and over again..
AZK: Look at your picture, cant even make out by name or pic what gender you are. Anyhow, I dont have to indulge or slip into something when you are doing it yourself. Have a pleasant night :0)
Me: hahaha.. so.. lets see.. my argument consists of references from the web, and rational analysis and factual gatherings from world famous scientists and yours consists of the confusion about my picture and my name (first time I’ve had this issue) and the comment saying ‘grow up’… and yes ofcourse… absolute denial of reliability of any reference i make or might make or perhaps could have made beside wikipedia. for example Oxford University or Harvard or University of Toronto.(all my references are available there as well) .. wow.. did you even bother to read what I wrote or is it just easier to be ignorent?
Me: this discussion reminds me of the butter fly effect. IK’s remark about Omer’s Law n now we’re arguing over the influence of Islamic Work on Europe n European so called agenda. 😛 hahaha.. Interesting Article KBA. 
KBA: interesting article and worst possible discussion . Ayesha and Iffi , about time I introduce you both to each other. Ayesha is a very well known columnist and writer and Iffi is firstly a guy and secondly an ex musician, and as you can see he does love getting his facts right.
Now without going into what’s right or wrong here, let me just say that its very difficult to state that for sure. However there are places where it becomes so obvious that Muslim contributions have been disregarded that it becomes very difficult to ignore as well. Let me give you an example . I was teaching a course on positive psychology this semester and I came across so many concept that are actually present in Islam since ages that I almost felt I was half teaching that subject in another name. On the flip side however, the same thing is present in other religions too – the reason ? Well probably because God has made certain values desirable for Man and they don’t keep changing. Point for everyone here to tone down the manner of discussion . Its a discussion and not a question of ‘I win’ . Plus Iffi, laughing at anyone during a discussion is simply bad manners. Desist.
I won’t claim to know for sure what the ‘west’ wants or not but I do know that most of the textbooks abroad do not include the names that Ayesha has provided. There are a few and many teachers have to dig them out and give them to the students or ask the students to do their own research regarding people such as Ibn e Rushd, Al Ghazali etc from other sources if they want to make a definite timeline . They have contributions, they came earlier, Avicenna is recognized widely but not thought. Coming back to IK , Blomqvist is a noted figure and knows historical data well. It would be interesting to follow up on this and wait for any new development .
Me: ok. this is what I call a rational approach to a discussion, which is much appreciated. first… if my ‘hahaha’ looks like I’m laughing AT someone.. then I apologize cuz i actually laughed at a sudden outburst of emotion… which I do find kind of funny when one’s expecting a different kind of discussion. i laughed at the response.. not the person. And I hope you’re not telling me that I wasn’t making any sense and Ms Khan did. 
The other thing. the fact that not all of the Muslim intellectual contribution are recognized in the current main stream is because in the field of science, art, academia, etc. (now a days) we don’t really look at the religion of the person who has presented a mathematical proof or a breakthrough psychological technique or an invention or discovery compared to the person or what they have proposed or have presented or created. That kind of approach would definitely take away the name of the ‘person’ who came up with it. Algebra being an example. invented in baghdad by some muslim mathematician who is unknown to history cuz the religion took the credit. And even that would have been erased if it wasn’t for the survival of the work itself. ‘algebra’. so to approach it from an angle that’s focusing more on the persons religious belief rather than the discovery.. well.. if we had simply gone by that method then the theory of relativity would have been a Jewish and the name Albert Einstein would have never seen the light of day. penicillin would have been known as christian medicine and Alexander Fleming would have been some guy who died a long time ago. I don’t really know what to say about that… do we know what the ‘real’ religious beliefs were of people like Newton or Darwin or Einstein or Socrates or Freud or any the other world famous men and women of science, art or philosophy? if you look into it.. as we’re discovering now by reviewing their personal letters and quotes etc., most of them were atheists or agnostic. so where does that leave us? do we dismiss their work or just forget about them and only look at the religion? we don’t. if that was the case then Abdus Salam wouldn’t have won the Nobel prize.
Muslim intellectual contributions and names may not be well known or ‘main stream famous’ but they are present and can be found in archives. just like the road building techniques of the ancient Romans and proper translations of the Egyptian hieroglyphs . And if or when all of them are digitized, it will be available for everyone to see.. my question is… then what?
and just because someone’s well known in their circle doesn’t always make them right. The ability to look at something(s) and understand and sometimes question what we see is what has been the biggest reason why human beings have survived all sorts of disasters and diseases and advanced to where we are today. if that wasn’t the case, the Spanish flue would have whipped out all of the human population from the face of the earth.
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